Jehovah's Witnesses, does Luke 24:36-43 proves Jesus is raised not as a spirit?

Jesus Appears to the Disciples

36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”

37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.

Thanks!

Best Answer: 

In Luke 24:39-43 and John 20:27, Jesus is appearing as a materialization, not as a spirit or vision, bearing his stigmata as a sign. He even appeared in a locked room, thus proving he was a materialization.

When he appeared before his apostles as a resurrected being at Luke 24:36-43, he was now a materialization like angels had done prior. Indeed, he even had to inform them that he was not appearing as a spiritual manifestation, but as a material manifestation. As John describes, Jesus appeared—materialized—in a locked room on two separate occasions, the second for the benefit of Thomas, complete with his stigmata to drive the point home that he was resurrected. (John 20:19, 26, 27, 29) In a dynamic demonstration that he was living as a spirit, he ascended to the sky, where a cloud obscured him from view. (Acts 1:9) This was when he discarded his materialized body for the last time.

Source(s):

Jesus’ Resurrection Body

http://jimspace3000.blogspot.com/2012/10/jesus-resurrection-body-this-blog-entry.html

Jesus: a Spirit Born on Earth
http://jimspace3000.blogspot.com/2011/02/jesus-spirit-born-on-earth-jesus-was.html

See also: Insight on the Scriptures: Resurrection (Heavenly Resurrection)
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200003709

LINK

When Jesus said he would return did he stipulate it would be in the flesh ?

Best Answer

No, Jesus did not stipulate what body he would return in, much less in the flesh. He did indicate though that it would NOT be flesh at John 8:21-3 where he said that he came from a higher realm where people could not enter on their own.

Annsan_In_Him compared Acts 1:11 with 1 Corinthians 15, that we “do a mental replay in reverse” with Acts 1:11. Based on that, Jesus ascended with a physical body and was obscured by a cloud (Acts 1:9) and then he returns with a different body, a “'heavenly body'”. This is correct. But notice also that the apostles were not literally watching Christ’s journey all the way to heaven. Thus he must have entered the spirit heavens as a spirit being, as 1 Corinthians 15:45 says that Jesus “became a life-giving spirit,” invisible to human eyes. (1 Corinthians 15:50) So, at most, the apostles saw only the beginning of Jesus’ journey; they could not watch its ending, his return to the heavenly presence of his Father. (John 20:17) This they could only discern with their eyes of faith.

In fact, in harmony with John 8:21-3, Jesus said shortly before his death: “A little longer and the world will behold me no more.” (John 14:19) He also said that “the kingdom of God is not coming with striking observableness.” (Luke 17:20) So he indicated his return would not be in the flesh.

However, Annsan_In_Him also said: “beware any translation that tries to use 1 Peter 3:18 to say Jesus was resurrected as a spirit.” Yet, the NET Bible, NASB, NRSV (main text and interlinear), NJB, and the ASV read “in the spirit,” and the Apostolic Bible Polyglot has the similar translation of “to the spirit.” So it is not just the NWT that has “in the spirit.” Thus that concern about the NWT has been deflated.

Additionally, the account at Luke 24:36-43 that she referred to actually proves that Jesus is a spirit as he appeared in the midst of people inside a locked room: thus he was materializing a human body from his spiritual existence.


Source:
Jesus’ Resurrection Body http://jimspace3000.blogspot.com/2012/10/jesus-resurrection-body-this-blog-entry.html

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130620014508AA6nWjp

LINK

Jehovah's Witnesses, Does St. Paul agree with Christ' Physical Ressurection?

In 1 Timothy 1:20, the apostle Paul said he had handed Hymenaeus and Alexander over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme. The two blasphemers had been excluded from the church. Out in the world, away from the church, they would be open to the full force of the god of that worldly system. In 2 Timothy 2:17–18, we discover what these men did to warrant expulsion from the church: they had denounced the physical resurrection and were dividing the church by teaching an early form of the heresy of Gnosticism


2 Timothy 2:17–18 (ESV)
17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some.

Answer:

The expression “saying that the resurrection has already happened” is vague and firm definitions of what Hymenaeus and Philetus taught is frankly impossible as we do not have their versions of what they taught. Saying it was Gnostic is difficult to prove as Gnostics believed in a divine spark that was entombed in human flesh.[1] Thus when the flesh died the divine spark was liberated, not resurrected.

Evidently this was their teaching: that the resurrection was merely a spiritual one in the sense of being a **symbolic kind,** and that the dedicated Christians had **already had their resurrection,** that this was all there was to the matter and there was no further resurrection in the future under God’s Messianic Kingdom. Perhaps they were quoting out of context Paul’s statement that Christians had been dead in their sins but were made alive through God’s spirit. (Ephesians 2:1-6) Indeed, twisting Paul’s words to promote errant teaching was a problem in the first century as Peter testified at 2 Peter 3:15-16.

That Jesus was resurrected as a spirit is shown in 1 Corinthians 15:45, that plainly declares that Jesus was resurrected as a “life-giving spirit.” (NET Bible)

Concerning 1 Peter 3:15: If the NWT “has been deliberately altered” to say “in the spirit,” translating the Greek word DE as “in,” then to be consistent the Trinitarian NET Bible, NASB, NRSV (main text and interlinear), NJB, and the ASV have also been deliberately altered as it reads the same! (The Apostolic Bible Polyglot has the similar translation of "to the spirit".) Thus that accusation has gone up in a puff of smoke. The NET Bible in its footnote says in part that this verse is about “modes of existence: the realm of unregenerate earthly life versus eternal heavenly life.” Thus, the translation of “in the spirit” is both valid and harmonious with other scriptures, like 1 Corinthians 15:45 and Jesus' appearance to Paul on the road to Damascus at Acts 26:13. There, Jesus Christ radiated light "beyond the brilliance of the sun" at midday. Clearly then he was a transcendent spirit being and not a resurrected human in outer space micromanaging his flesh![2] Another scripture harmonious with “in the spirit” is Hebrews 5:7 as it places Jesus' being in the flesh in the past! Therefore when the resurrected Jesus said at Luke 24:39 that “a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you behold that I have” he was speaking with a materialized body. It must be remembered that he appeared in their midst in a locked room, thus proving he was a spirit being materializing before them.

Thus the unanimous voice of Scripture clearly shows that Jesus is thankfully no longer in the flesh.

In conclusion, the heresy of Hymenaeus and Philetus is not the same as the Bible teaching of Jesus’ resurrection as a spirit being. Their teaching was more of a symbolic abstraction that denied the full force and reality of the resurrection.

Source:
[1] This is actually akin to the Trinitarian Jesus who was a divine person encased in his human nature flesh. Thus, Trinitarianism is clearly akin to the Gnostic heresy.

[2] According to Trinitarian Chalcedonian Dyophysitism, Jesus is now “truly man” “soul and body” in outer space lacking an astronaut suit and thus Jesus must eternally micromanage his flesh so it can survive! How absurd and insulting to Jesus Christ!

Additional reading:
Jesus’ Resurrection Body http://jimspace3000.blogspot.com/2012/10/jesus-resurrection-body-this-blog-entry.html

Hebrews 5:7 and Trinitarianism: A Compatibility Crisis http://jimspace3000.blogspot.com/2012/09/hebrews-57-and-trinitarianism_11.html

LINK

Two questions for Trinitarians?

I've read different stances coming from different Trinitarians on these two questions:

1) Are the persons of the Trinity separate and distinct or distinct only in the Godhead?

2) Does Jesus' full human nature have red blood or spirit? 2a) If you say spirit, how is that full human nature?

Thank you.

Additional Details

Thank you for the replies thus far.

To repeat and clarify:

--I've read different stances coming from different Trinitarians only, not Trinitarians and Oneness believers.

--Jesus' full human nature now according to the Hypostatic Union doctrine. As Jesus is "100% man" now,[1] does he have red blood now? (It seems like he would have to in order to be fully or 100% man.)

[1] Pastor Doug Dodd s.b.g., The Hypostatic Union. http://pluto.matrix49.com/15697/?subpages/Hypostatic-Union.shtml

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Let me repeat question 1 using parentheses to make it clearer:

1) Are the persons of the Trinity (separate and distinct) or (distinct only) in the Godhead?

(FTR I have not thumbed down replies.)

Trinitarian Dr. William Lane Craig said that the holy spirit is "separate and distinct" as a person.[2] But Trinitarian apologist Matt Slick says the three persons of the Trinity "are three distinct persons."[3]

[2] Does The Trinity Make Sense? Rabbi Tovia Singer vs William Lane Craig Debate (9:25). http://youtu.be/2lwRTki1js0

[3] The Trinity, the Hypostatic Union, and the Communicatio Idiomatum. http://carm.org/christianity/christian-doctrine/trinity-hypostatic-union-and-communicatio-idiomatum

Also, I've noticed that some Trinitarians reject the Hypostatic Union and say Jesus is only fully divine. Perhaps they do not realize that this denial may amount to monophysitism, "the Christological position that Christ has only one nature, his humanity being absorbed by his Deity, as opposed to the Chalcedonian position which holds that Christ maintains two natures, one divine and one human. As monophysitism is contrary to the orthodox Chalcedonian Creed it has always been considered heretical by the Western Church and most of the Eastern Church." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monophysitism

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Unfortunately, none of the Trinitarians who responded were able to resolve my two questions, nor were any able to edit their replies in accords with my additional details. So, I was left with little choice but to choose this as "BA". [Click on link below to see the "Best Answer."]

Link

Related links:

• "What a tangled web we weave..." http://jimspace3000.blogspot.com/2010/04/what-tangled-web-we-weave.html
• "Are the Persons of the Trinity separate and distinct or distinct only?" http://jimspace3000.blogspot.com/2011/01/are-persons-of-trinity-separate-and.html
• "Do You Reject Trinitarianism?" http://jimspace3000.blogspot.com/2010/11/normal-0-false-false-false.html
• Does The Trinity Make Sense? http://jimspace3000.blogspot.com/2010/07/blog-post.html

My Answer to: Do all Jehovah's Witnesses believe this? Please Help!?

Jehovah's Witnesses believe and confess that Jesus had a completely different body and the one that was scarred had been dissolved and done away with by The Lord.

If this is true then why would Jesus be deceptive in proving that He was the risen Christ?

Thomas the disciple needed proof that Jesus was indeed the risen Christ who had been crucified therefore Jesus showed him scars in His hands and side as proof.

SCRIPTURE:
Then said He to Thomas, "Reach hither thy finger and behold My hands, and reach hither thy hand and thrust it into My side: and be not faithless, but believing"

So here is my Question:

"Do Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus showed Thomas replicated scars and not the actual scars He received for our Salvation?"

My Answer:

The book You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth states on pp. 143-5:

FLESHLY BODY NOT TAKEN TO HEAVEN
However, many persons believe that Christ took his fleshly body to heaven. They point to the fact that when Christ was raised from the dead, his fleshly body was no longer in the tomb. (Mark 16:5-7) Also, after his death Jesus appeared to his disciples in a fleshly body to show them that he was alive. Once He even had the apostle Thomas put his hand into the hole in His side so that Thomas would believe that He had actually been resurrected. (John 20:24-27) Does this not prove that Christ was raised alive in the same body in which he was put to death?

No, it does not. The Bible is very clear when it says: “Christ died once for all time concerning sins . . . , he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.” (1 Peter 3:18) Humans with flesh-and-blood bodies cannot live in heaven. Of the resurrection to heavenly life, the Bible says: “It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. . . . flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom.” (1 Corinthians 15:44-50) Only spirit persons with spiritual bodies can live in heaven.

Well, then, what happened to Jesus’ fleshly body? Did not the disciples find his tomb empty? They did, because God removed Jesus’ body. Why did God do this? It fulfilled what had been written in the Bible. (Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:31) Thus Jehovah saw fit to remove Jesus’ body, even as he had done before with Moses’ body. (Deuteronomy 34:5, 6) Also, if the body had been left in the tomb, Jesus’ disciples could not have understood that he had been raised from the dead, since at that time they did not fully appreciate spiritual things.

But since the apostle Thomas was able to put his hand into the hole in Jesus’ side, does that not show that Jesus was raised from the dead in the same body that was nailed to the stake? No, for Jesus simply materialized or took on a fleshly body, as angels had done in the past. In order to convince Thomas of who He was, He used a body with wound holes. He appeared, or seemed to be, fully human, able to eat and drink, just as did the angels that Abraham once entertained.—Genesis 18:8; Hebrews 13:2.

While Jesus appeared to Thomas in a body similar to the one in which He was put to death, He also took on different bodies when appearing to His followers. Thus Mary Magdalene at first thought that Jesus was a gardener. At other times his disciples did not at first recognize him. In these instances it was not his personal appearance that served to identify him, but it was some word or action that they recognized.—John 20:14-16; 21:6, 7; Luke 24:30, 31.

For 40 days after his resurrection, Jesus made appearances in a fleshly body to his disciples. (Acts 1:3) Then he left for heaven. (end quote)

So if Jesus appeared in the same body he sacrificed, would it not appear that he had invalidated the ransom? It certainly would, especially to Satan who would then charge him as being fraudulent. Also, please consider Galatians 1:1, where Paul in effect said that Jesus is not a man.

Hi Rusty (and anyone else), if you read our comments carefully, you'll see that Jesus is a spirit who materialized. There is a scriptural precedent for this. Also, Jesus is a man now experientially, not ontologically. That's because Jesus said he is not from our lower (physical) world in John 8:23, and Peter said he is not physical but is a spirit in 1 Peter 3:18. Regarding Hebrews 13:8, Jesus' personality is the same regardless of being a spirit being in heaven. Did you know that we can only live on earth or in earthly conditions? Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:50 that physical bodies cannot enter heaven. So Jesus cannot have a physical body outside of earth, for Jesus said that heaven is a higher world than our lower world in John 8:23. Also, please consider Galatians 1:1, where Paul in effect said that Jesus is not a man. Jesus is a man now experientially (by experience), not ontologically. Ontologically he is a spirit as Peter and Paul said.

Additional comment:

Yes, the angels who materialized as "humans" still existed as angels. Of course they were not children of Adam requiring a redeemer! :-) When finished, they dematerialized like the ascending Jesus did when a cloud obscured him from view. Thanks for asking!

LINK


Additional reading:

• Jesus’ Resurrection Body http://jimspace3000.blogspot.com/2012/10/jesus-resurrection-body-this-blog-entry.html
• Passing Through the Curtain http://jimspace3000.blogspot.com/2014/12/passing-through-curtain.html
• Dismantling Trinitarianism http://jimspace3000.blogspot.com/2014/01/dismantling-trinitarianism-you-foolish.html

My First Question: Trinitarians: How can Jesus be fully man outside of earth's atmosphere?

Trinitarianism teaches that "Jesus' two natures, human and divine, are inseparable. Jesus will forever be the God-man, fully God and fully human, two distinct natures in one Person. Jesus' humanity and divinity are not mixed, but are united without loss of separate identity."
http://www.gotquestions.org/hypostatic-u…

But now Jesus is in heaven, outside of earth's atmosphere. How can he retain his human nature and keep it intact? He never had to before the incarnation. But now he has to maintain his human nature, sustaining it outside of earth's atmosphere, forever?

Additional Details

@ Bar_enosh: Thank you for your response. I'd like to hear from Trinitarians too.

@ Carlito, hi and thank you for your response.

“Heaven,” God’s abode, is by definition outside of earth’s atmosphere. If it wasn’t, then God would be physically discernable and measurable, which he isn’t. Corroborating this is Psalms 57:5 and 11, which says: “Be exalted above the heavens, O God; Let Your glory be above all the earth.” (NASB) (See also Psalms 108:5 and 113:4, and Deuteronomy 10:14.) Thus, both reason and scripture lead one to conclude that God dwells outside of earth’s atmosphere.

I agree with you that “heaven” is “the spiritual dimension.” But that too is by definition outside of earth’s atmosphere.

Regarding human nature and the human body, the Hypostatic Union doctrine teaches that Jesus is the union of two hypostases, two substances, in one hypostasis or substance. It is a union of the human and divine hypostases. Trinitarianism teaches that Jesus retained his human body he acquired at his incarnation.

“The addition of the human nature to the divine nature is Jesus, the God-man. This is the hypostatic union, Jesus Christ, one Person, fully God and fully man.”[1] Additionally, one Trinitarian wrote that “Jesus is God in human flesh. He is not half God and half man. He is fully divine and fully man. That is, Jesus has two distinct natures: divine and human.”[2] Thus, Jesus’ human nature is declared to be human flesh.

The Trinitarian Jesus is the union of his human nature or body of his incarnation with his divine nature. To say that his human nature is not human would contradict Trinitarianism’s doctrine that Jesus is fully man. It would also be similar to the docetic heresy, that Jesus only appears to be human.[3]

This being said, my sincere question remains.

Footnotes:
[1] “What is the hypostatic union? How can Jesus be both God and man at the same time?” http://www.gotquestions.org/hypostatic-u…

[2] Slick, Matt. “The Trinity, the Hypostatic Union, and the Communicatio Idiomatum.” http://carm.org/christianity/christian-d…

[3] “Docetism” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docetism

"Docetic" in that Jesus retained a docetic human form. But that is anathema. He retained his incarnate human body according to the Trinitarian sources above. I agree it would make more sense if Trinitarianism would teach that Jesus is human experientially (human by experience only now), but it doesn't. It teaches that Jesus is fully human and fully divine, in hypostatic union.

@ Carlito
In addition to Psalms 57:5, 11, 108:5 and 113:4, and Deuteronomy 10:14, we have the Lord Jesus’ own description recorded at John 8:23: “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.” (NIV) Thus he said that his world, “heaven,” is “above” this world. We also have the accounts of an angel’s and Jesus’ ascension to heaven. (Judges 13:20; Acts 1:9) Lastly, there is the account in Revelation 12 where Satan and his angels are “thrown down to the earth.” (NASB) Since you said you favor heaven being “the spiritual dimension,” this could be illustrated by calling it “above” earth, as it would be a higher realm.

Where did your comment go Carlito? [He removed his comment, but I continued to reply to what I read him say.]

1 Corinthians 15:50 declares an axiomatic truth: “flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom.” (NWT) This applies to the laws of creation. The natural cannot exist in the supernatural.

Any teaching that leads to ridiculous conclusions has to be questioned. The Trinity teaching of the hypostatic union is one of these. It teaches that Jesus is now fully human in heaven, whereas before he was fully divine only. Trinitarians also say, correctly in this case, that God is transcendent. Here lies an apparent contradiction, for this leads to an impossible situation of something from “the below” (TWN KATW), his human body under the laws of physics, existing in “the above” (TWN ANW), the divine heavenly realm above the laws of physics (John 8:23), and a situation where Jesus now has to maintain his human body in this transcendent realm where by definition it cannot exist. This would make Jesus a fool for not discarding his human body, and since the Lord Jesus is not a fool, the hypostatic union is offensive to him. Trinitarian reasoning and exegesis then falls into question as a whole, as a much more reasonable exegesis exists, one that has a valid soteriology.

A point in conclusion: God can only create what is allowable by the laws of physics that he put in place. So, this is not about lack of faith in His ability to make a human-divine hypostatic union, but faith in His superior intelligence to not waste time and energy in something that His laws of physics will not support, in this case of having a human body in heaven.

LINK


Related blog post:

• Trinitarianism and Docetism: Did the Person of Jesus Feel the Pain of His Ransom Sacrifice? http://jimspace3000.blogspot.com/2015/04/trinitarianism-and-docetism-did-person.html