"Munificentissimus Deus - Defining the Dogma of the Assumption." November 1, 1950.
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x…
See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assumption_…
1 Corinthians 15:50 states in the Jerusalem Bible: “Flesh and blood [the natural] cannot inherit the kingdom of God [the supernatural]: and the perishable [the natural] cannot inherit what lasts for ever [the supernatural].” So, how can the natural (Mary's physical body) exist in the supernatural (Heaven)?
Last but not least, the Lord Jesus declared at John 8:23: “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.” (NIV) Thus he said that his world, “heaven,” is “above” this world. So, how can something from “the below” (TWN KATW), Mary's human body under the laws of physics, exist in “the above” (TWN ANW), the divine heavenly realm above the laws of physics and outside of earth's atmosphere?
Additional Details
While it is true that 2 Kings 2:11 has Elijah ascending in a windstorm to the heavens, he does not die at this time, nor does he go into the invisible spirit realm, but he is transferred to another prophetic assignment. (See John 3:13.) This is shown by the fact that Elisha does not hold any period of mourning for his master. A number of years (over four) after his ascension in the windstorm Elijah is still alive and active as a prophet, this time to the king of Judah. Because of the wicked course taken by King Jehoram of Judah, Elijah writes him a letter expressing Jehovah’s condemnation, which is fulfilled shortly thereafter.—2Ch 21:12-15.
Regarding Enoch, Genesis 5:24 says he was no more, for God "took" him, and Hebrews 11:5 says he was "translated" or "taken away" so he would not see his own death; nothing about retaining his physical body.
So, the Bible doesn't really say that these two retained their human bodies outside of earth's atmosphere. It's just not there.
Regarding Enoch, Genesis 5:24 says he was no more, for God "took" him, and Hebrews 11:5 says he was "translated" or "taken away" so he would not see his own death; nothing about retaining his physical body.
So, the Bible doesn't really say that these two retained their human bodies outside of earth's atmosphere. It's just not there.
Regarding Moses, Deuteronomy 32:1-6 states that he died in Moab and was burried there in the valley in front of Beth-peor. Nothing about going to heaven, much less with his human body. In fact, Jude 9 depicts Satan disputing over Moses' body, showing that it was not in heaven but still buried.
Regarding Abraham, Genesis 25:9 states that he was burried 'in the cave of Machpelah in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite that is in front of Mamre.' Again, nothing about going to heaven, much less with his human body.
Regarding Abraham, Genesis 25:9 states that he was burried 'in the cave of Machpelah in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite that is in front of Mamre.' Again, nothing about going to heaven, much less with his human body.
@ BibleChooser: Thank you for your thoughtful reply.
About Possibilities #1 and 2, I accept those, however then in both of them she is without her physical body which is what I am questioning the validity of based on Scripture and the laws of physics. Why would God take a human being outside of earth’s atmosphere? Would he not then have to micromanage her body so it would not expire? That seems to be based on ignorance that humans can only live on earth or if they take earth-like conditions with them (like in an astronaut suit) to an inhospitable place (like outer space). Either the popes don’t know that, or they haven’t applied this knowledge to the Assumption of Mary doctrine.
About Elijah, having him expire during his fiery-chariot departure appears to contradict Bible chronology that evidently has him writing a true warning to King Jehoram of Judah at 2Ch 21:12-15 a number of years after this event.
About Possibilities #1 and 2, I accept those, however then in both of them she is without her physical body which is what I am questioning the validity of based on Scripture and the laws of physics. Why would God take a human being outside of earth’s atmosphere? Would he not then have to micromanage her body so it would not expire? That seems to be based on ignorance that humans can only live on earth or if they take earth-like conditions with them (like in an astronaut suit) to an inhospitable place (like outer space). Either the popes don’t know that, or they haven’t applied this knowledge to the Assumption of Mary doctrine.
About Elijah, having him expire during his fiery-chariot departure appears to contradict Bible chronology that evidently has him writing a true warning to King Jehoram of Judah at 2Ch 21:12-15 a number of years after this event.
He departed from Elisha in Israel, then he is seen again a number of years later writing a letter to the king of Judah. So, perhaps the fiery chariot transported him to another prophetic assignment. In any case, 2 Chronicles presents him as still being alive on earth after his fiery departure. (It’s possible it was a different Elijah, but it seems that Ezra, the chronicler, would have mentioned this. Also, his letter was not a forgery, for it proved to be true.)
About Enoch, Hebrews 11:5 uses the Greek word that signifies he was "translated," “transferred” or "taken away." However, in view of Jesus’ clear statement to Nicodemus at John 3:13, (“_No one [no human] has ascended into heaven_, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.”—NASB) he was not taken to heaven. One theory is that God put him in a prophetic trance and then terminated his life while he was in the trance, so that he did not experience the pangs of death or martyrdom.
About Enoch, Hebrews 11:5 uses the Greek word that signifies he was "translated," “transferred” or "taken away." However, in view of Jesus’ clear statement to Nicodemus at John 3:13, (“_No one [no human] has ascended into heaven_, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.”—NASB) he was not taken to heaven. One theory is that God put him in a prophetic trance and then terminated his life while he was in the trance, so that he did not experience the pangs of death or martyrdom.
It appears then that God disposed of Enoch’s body when he “took him.” Since Jesus by implication said he did not go to Heaven in John 3:13, it appears then that Enoch is preserved in God’s memory and will be resurrected at the appointed time.
Thank you for providing me insight as to why some may think Moses and Abraham ascended to heaven, per the transfiguration and the rich man and Lazarus account. However, as Jesus said in John 3:13, they did not ascend to Heaven. So, the transfiguration appearances must have been visionary and prophetic in nature. Regarding the nature of the dispute over Moses’ body, it appears that God kept his burial place a secret to prevent the Israelites from being ensnared by idolatry by making a shrine of his grave. Evidently Satan desired to use Moses’ body for some such purpose.
Thank you for providing me insight as to why some may think Moses and Abraham ascended to heaven, per the transfiguration and the rich man and Lazarus account. However, as Jesus said in John 3:13, they did not ascend to Heaven. So, the transfiguration appearances must have been visionary and prophetic in nature. Regarding the nature of the dispute over Moses’ body, it appears that God kept his burial place a secret to prevent the Israelites from being ensnared by idolatry by making a shrine of his grave. Evidently Satan desired to use Moses’ body for some such purpose.
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A point in conclusion: God can only create what is allowable by the laws of physics that he put in place. So, this is not about lack of faith in His ability to support a physical human outside of earth's atmosphere, but faith in His superior intelligence to not waste time and energy in something that His laws of physics will not support, in this case of having a human body in heaven.
A point in conclusion: God can only create what is allowable by the laws of physics that he put in place. So, this is not about lack of faith in His ability to support a physical human outside of earth's atmosphere, but faith in His superior intelligence to not waste time and energy in something that His laws of physics will not support, in this case of having a human body in heaven.
See a similar question/answer:
Trinitarians: How can Jesus be fully man outside of earth's atmosphere?
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;…
Trinitarians: How can Jesus be fully man outside of earth's atmosphere?
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;…
Best Answer: [by Mindy]
You asked and I quote:"How can Mary exist in Heaven (outside of earth's atmosphere) with her physical body?"
It's absolutely utterly impossible. Even though the Bible does state that with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE at Matthew 19:26, it also states that "it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to lie" at Hebrews 6:18.
Therefore, when the Bible speaks of ALL THINGS being possible with God, this would by reason of necessity be "ALL THINGS" that DO NOT go against his own holy Word, being that it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to lie.
People have to learn to view the Bible for what it truly is... the INFALLIBLE Word of God the Almighty. It's GOD'S WORD, in which it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to lie:
"Indeed, that is why we also thank God incessantly, because when YOU received God’s word, which YOU heard from us, YOU accepted it, NOT AS THE WORD OF MEN, but, just as it TRUTHFULLY IS, AS THE WORD OF GOD, which is also at work in YOU believers."
~ 1 Thessalonians 2:13
It is GOD'S WORD which clearly states that flesh and blood CANNOT inherit God's Kingdom at 1 Corinthians 15:50. Being that it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to lie and his Word clearly states what it does at 1 Corinthians 15:50, the Scriptural rule found at Romans 3:4 is enforced when it comes to either believing God at his Word... OR... believing the ideas, thoughts, traditions, beliefs, theories... etc, of sincere, well meaning but imperfect humans:
"let God be found true, though every man be found a liar"
~ Romans 3:4
I am an ex-Italian Roman Catholic and even back when I and my family use to go to the church, I personally never believed in the Assumption doctrine. It never sat well with me. I knew that God wasn't a human being and our kind (humans) could not possibly exist in a place whre an all powerful being such as God was. Upon learning the truth of the Scriptures I became beyond convinced due to the accurate knowledge on the subject that the Bible provided.
I truly do feel for people, they are like blind people groping around in darkness who are being led and guided by other blind people whom they respect because of the titles they hold as part of the religious Clergy. I understand how Jesus must have felt when he saw the crowds of people and he "felt pity for them, because they were skinned and thrown about like sheep without a shepherd" (Matthew 9:36).
Not too long ago, I was one of them, groping around in the darkness and simply reciting what I was taught and grew up on as part of religious tradition.
I noticed that people here have brought up 'the Rich Man and Lazarus' PARABLE recorded at Luke 16:19-31 as a possible way to try and justify the Assumption, however that parable doesn't cut it because of it being just that... a PARABLE / ILLUSTRATION.
The Jerusalem Bible, in a footnote, acknowledges that it is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.”
If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there. Does that sound reasonable to you... to friggin ANYONE?
If it were literal, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible. If the Bible were thus contradictory, would a lover of truth use it as a basis for his faith? But the Bible does not contradict itself, it is only the man-made religious teachings and traditions that are taught as doctrine, which make the Bible SEEM to contradict itself.
So, what does the parable about 'the Rich Man and Lazarus' mean?
The “rich man” represented the Pharisees (See verse 14). The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32). Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.—Acts 5:33; 7:54.
Then, I noticed that you had some people bring up the account of the prophet Elijah in the whirlwind. There's no need for me to go into that because you have done so wonderfully by Scripture. You showed that the prophet WAS NOT taken to the heavenly spirit realm but rather to the physical heaven(s) which consists of the sky, clouds, birds... etc, that he was simply transported from one place to another and at a later time he even sent correspondance by letter.
As for the events that took place during the transfiguration of Jesus, the Bible shows that what the apostles saw was in fact a VISION, due to the fact that after the event happened, Jesus is recorded as saying to the apostles John, Peter and James, "Tell THE VISION to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead” (Matthew 17:9).
During Jesus’ transfiguration, Moses and Elijah also appeared “with glory.” (Lu 9:30, 31; Matthew 17:3; Mark 9:4) It had been foretold that Jehovah would raise up a prophet like Moses, and that promise was fulfilled in Christ. (Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Acts 3:19-23) There were many similarities between Moses and Jesus, such as: Babes were killed at their births, though they themselves were spared (Exodus 1:20–2:10; Matthew 2:7-23); they both experienced fasts of 40 days’ duration (Exodus 24:18; 34:28; Deuteronomy 9:18, 25; Matthew 4:1, 2); both were raised up by God in the interests of true worship and to effect deliverance (Exodus 3:1-10; Acts 7:30-37; 3:19-23); they were each privileged by God to mediate a covenant with his people (Exodus 24:3-8; Hebrews 8:3-6; 9:15); both were used by Jehovah to magnify his name (Exodus 9:13-16; John 12:28-30; 17:5, 6, 25, 26).
It was also foretold that Jehovah would send Elijah the prophet, among whose works was that of turning persons of Israel to true repentance. While Jesus was on earth, John the Baptizer did a work of that kind and served as the Messiah’s forerunner, fulfilling Malachi 4:5, 6. (Matthew 11:11-15; Luke 1:11-17) But, since the transfiguration occurred after the death of John the Baptizer, Elijah’s appearance in it indicates that a work of restoration of true worship and vindication of Jehovah’s name would be associated with the establishment of God’s Kingdom in the hands of Christ.
During the transfiguration, Jesus, Moses, and Elijah talked about Christ’s “departure [a form of the Greek word e′xo·dos] that he was destined to fulfill at Jerusalem.” (Luke 9:31) This e′xo·dos, exodus or departure, evidently involved both Christ’s death and his subsequent resurrection to spirit life.
Some critics have endeavored to class the transfiguration as simply a dream. However, Peter, James, and John would not logically all have had exactly the same dream. Jesus himself called what took place a “vision” (Matthew 17:9), but not a mere illusion. Christ was actually there, though Moses and Elijah, who were dead, were not literally present. They were represented in vision. The Greek word used for “vision” at Matthew 17:9 is ho′ra·ma, also rendered “sight.” (Acts 7:31) It does not imply unreality, as though the observers were laboring under a delusion. Nor were they insensible to what occurred, for they were fully awake when witnessing the transfiguration. With their literal eyes and ears they actually saw and heard what took place at that time.—Luke 9:32.
As Moses and Elijah were being separated from Jesus, Peter, “not realizing what he was saying,” suggested the erecting of three tents, one each for Jesus, Moses, and Elijah. (Luke 9:33) But as the apostle spoke, a cloud formed (Luke 9:34), evidently (as at the tent of meeting in the wilderness) symbolizing Jehovah’s presence there on the mountain of the transfiguration. (Exodus 40:34-38) From out of the cloud there came Jehovah’s voice, saying: “This is my Son, the one that has been chosen. Listen to him.” (Luke 9:35) Years later, with reference to the transfiguration, Peter identified the heavenly voice as that of “God the Father.” (2Peter 1:17, 18) In the transfiguration, evidently Moses and Elijah represented the Law and the Prophets, both of which pointed toward and were fulfilled in Christ. Whereas in the past God had spoken through prophets, he now indicated that he would do so through his Son.—Galatians 3:24; Hebrews 1:1-3.
The apostle Peter viewed the transfiguration as a marvelous confirmation of the prophetic word, and by having been an eyewitness of Christ’s magnificence, he was able to acquaint his readers “with the power and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (2Peter 1:16, 19) The apostle had experienced the fulfillment of Christ’s promise that some of his followers would “not taste death at all until first they see the kingdom of God already come in power.” (Mark 9:1) The apostle John may also have alluded to the transfiguration at John 1:14.
My guess of why MANY Catholics put stock in the man-made dogma of the Assumption is because of what is stated in the book of Revelation at Revelation 12:1, 2. They are taught to believe that the "woman" that the apostle John was/is the "virgin" Mary. I'm NOT here going to go into how and why the "woman" IS NOT Mary and what the "woman" actually represents because I have already done so on Yahoo Answers here:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=A0WTZXT3GaVMwXwACAnty6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20100927093834AANnhyy&show=7#profile-info-iBxx4SNNaa
